Lucky Star, the semantics of moe, and why your opinion is a riot
There are opinions, and there are opinions about other people’s opinions. This is one of the latter, and if you’re the type who ignores the message as a whole in favour of focusing on one sentence/paragraph, you should give this a pass. Newsflash — this post is not, I repeat, not an attack on your liberty to have an opinion or an attack on your person. This is meant to facilitate discussion, and I hope the responses I get, if any, will focus on my opinion too.
So this is Another Post About Lucky Star. In an attempt to find it unfunny I watched the speed sub, the quality sub, and was this close to watching the joke sub, if it wasn’t for all that talk about smegma, ass cheese, and “that’s not mud” during the food scene. Funny != disgusting, and I didn’t feel like sitting through 20 minutes of memes masquerading as humour. I still laughed the second time round, in any case.
as much as I’ve got a sweet spot for the bunnies Lunarians of Eientei, Drmchsr0 posted a superior version that’s just dying to be animated.
The thing that really annoyed me while reading through the anti-Lucky Star posts this week — one of the common reasons for disliking it was how it was a “moe anime”, which is what I’m going to talk about today. Firstly, what exactly is moe? Can you define it? JP Meyer once translated the entire contents of the Japanese Wikipedia article on moe, so allow me to draw your attention to it.
It would be reasonable to deduce from that post that moe is basically unquantifiable as an idea, because it’s too subjective — no two people can agree on it. This is what they call qualitative data in sociology, data that is thoroughly subjective and difficult, if not impossible to translate into numbers and graphs; as opposed to quantitative data, which is obviously data that can be quantified. Bearing that in mind, we can arrive at the statement that (S):
S: Moe is immeasurable/unquantifiable.
Obviously different things appeal to different people. What then about the opposite? If you believe that the appropriate terminology to label Lucky Star, or any anime for that matter, is through the moe label then the following reasons-to-conclusion (R1-R4 therefore C) logic would also be true — feel free to correct or comment on this:
R1: Lucky Star has been called a moe anime.
R2: It is called a moe anime because it is alleged to have been marketed as a moe anime.
R3: In order for something to be marketed it has to be concrete and not abstract; no one can buy feelings or emotions, but they can a DVD or comic.
R4: If moe is concrete and not abstract this means that moe can be quantified.
Therefore, this means that
C: Kagami Yoshimizu and KyoAni are able to quantify the concept of moe, and through measuring it they produced Lucky Star.
Still with me? That’s shaky ground, and also the popular opinion of the moment. I thought we’ve been through this with that infamous picture from NHK ni Youkoso. Apparently not. Here’s something to jog your memory, three whole pages for context.
I believe moe as a label is a terribly flawed meme of fan origins that was later adopted into anime, not the other way round. If that Japanese Wikipedia entry can be recognised as true, then why doesn’t anyone say, for example, that Touhou’s a “moe shooter”? 3/4ths of the cast are youkai, there’s a shrine maiden and maid, assorted animal ears, Alice is tsundere — the list goes on. I do know the answer to this, which leads me to my second point.
The reason why Touhou’s not called a moe shooter and thusly lambasted is due to the fact that aside being technically moe, there’s a lot more going for it. Lucky Star is just moe, according to the reasoning above, and not at all funny, which means that it automatically fails. Not. This is wholly my personal opinion and not logic of any sort, but as I previously mentioned in my first post — everyone’s expecting something they’ve seen before. As Azumanga was arguably the most well-known, this is where my guesswork comes in; expectations of Lucky Star were along those lines, e.g something with crude slapstick and obviously funny jokes because they share the same genres. Lucky Star has humour that’s more subtle than anything — a crude analogy would be, if Azumanga’s humour was Miu pulling pranks on everyone then Lucky Star would be Chika and her deadpan comebacks, which aren’t that funny out of, but amusing in context.
What’s worse is that it’s even been compared to KyoAni’s previous works. No offence, Lupus; so basically you liked Haruhi, an adaptation of a light novel, arguably the most avant-garde we’ve seen in ages and has so many genres listed it’s almost futile to classify? That’s great. Then you semi-liked Kanon, which was an adaptation of an eroge, and had graphics way above anything KyoAni’s ever done (because occasion demanded so). Excellent.
Here’s what I don’t get — you don’t like Lucky Star, which is an adaptation of a 4koma, because of the graphics, which weren’t even there to begin with? That’s like asking why can’t a strawberry taste like an orange and look like a banana — all because the orange and banana came first. It’s flimsy reasoning like these trying to pass for an opinion that makes me sit back and shake my head in despair. Lupus’s post was just an example that came to mind — I’m pretty sure if I had the time I could go about AnimeNano and AnimeBlogger and find more posts like those.
My third point — Lucky Star is a self-satire on the subculture they’re marketed to, and no one seems to have brought that up, at least not to my knowledge. So the main character just needs a penis to be part of that very demographic, and we have four girls who are the epitome of clichd archetypes that demographic is known to adore, yet instead of applauding the quiet parody we’ve got a bandwagon playing the Not Funny card and demanding more in-your-face humour.
Maybe I’m the one that doesn’t get it. Discuss.
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Epic post.
>>no one can buy feelings or emotions
And shows like Kanon or AIR…?
>>R1 -> C
Perhaps they are able to “quantify moe,” perhaps not. You don’t really need to in order to market something… Example: games that claim to have “accessible reality” on the box. Is that quantifiable? Most likely not. But the company selling the game is marketing it as such. What I’m missing in this bit of logic is your point. What are you trying to say with this conclusion? Are you saying it’s impossible and that therefore the show isn’t “moe anime,” or are you saying that it’s calculated with utmost precision?
>>My third point Lucky Star is a self-satire on the subculture theyre marketed to, and no one seems to have brought that up, at least not to my knowledge.
I have a feeling that not many people brought it up, in part, because of Haruhi. Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu can be seen as “parody” in many places, from its use of over-generic character archetypes to the irony in Kyon’s scathing commentary on the situations the characters find themselves in. Haruhi herself explains, in episode two, the “basics of moe.” (I may be wrong; it may not be parody. I hope to everything that’s good and sacred that it is, because if not, the show drops a level or two…)
Now, Haruhi did it. Kanon 2006 also did it to some extent, though it made fun of slightly different things. Either people expected Lucky Star to do it or they were so unsurprised when Lucky Star did it that it wasn’t worth commenting on. Yes, it’s self-satire. But there’s a problem with that sometimes…
Take a look at Bleach. Bleach = parody of generic shounen action series. Bleach, being an unenjoyable generic shounen action series at points, = failed parody. Ouran, on the other hand, parodies reverse-harem beautifully, and comes out as functioning self-satire. Now, I haven’t watched all of Lucky Star episode 1 yet, and I possibly never will, but I do believe I can say this just looking at the opening: there’s more than satire going on there.
There’s a point at which “it’s a joke on ourselves” doesn’t cut it anymore, and that’s the point at which you’re catering to the slobbering otaku masses to the same extent to which Lucky Star is.
Maybe some people are more forgiving than I am. Maybe some people LIKE the catering. But as self-satire? LS fails. It’s just dose after dose of what it’s parodying.
>>And shows like Kanon or AIR?
Are hit or miss as you very well know. Only 2/5 of the girls actually appealed to me, it should have been 5/5 or none at all. Different people feel different things, people out there definitely exist who write Kanon off as a flop for being too engineered towards evoking emotions with regards to the girls. I know I did in parts.
Since I feel a hell lot more articulate now after dinner than when I was typing out that post on a post-caffeine hangover, I guess I’ll try and elaborate more in the comments.
>>What are you trying to say with this conclusion? Are you saying its impossible and that therefore the show isnt moe anime, or are you saying that its calculated with utmost precision?
It’s impossible, and it isn’t a “moe anime”. And I might be a bit confusing with the R-C thing but let me put it this way: moe is not, and will never be a genre, which is why I’m dead set against the label.
Unlike the other genre labels moe is just impossible — with the others you know what you’re going to get, roughly. This is semiotics, or the study of language and the meaning we’re attaching to words. I say shounen and you think of? Fights, fights, more fights, quantity episodes (lol One Piece, Bleach, Naruto etc), fanservice. The general idea is there. I say shoujo and you think of pretty boys, general quality humour, a relationship-centered plot from the perspective of the girl. That’s the meaning you can derive most of the time.
If I say moe and you think of it as a genre? What you think of as moe and what I think of as moe is totally different. There is no “common denominator”, no general characteristics for moe per se, just a fuzzy feeling that everyone thinks is moe and therefore, I say, that’s ridiculous! Using that is a non sequitur, and something which I’m annoyed with.
>>Example: games that claim to have accessible reality on the box. Is that quantifiable? Most likely not. But the company selling the game is marketing it as such.
They can try, but whether or not they succeed is another thing. If moe was quantifiable this would mean that animes deliberately marketed as thus would have a consistently high viewers because the company has “nailed the formula” as it were. This is what everyone claims LS is, and what I don’t agree with.
>>but I do believe I can say this just looking at the opening: theres more than satire going on there.
Hmm, maybe we need a new word for this (like Marxism did, lol). Allow me to coin the term “reverse-satire”.
>>Theres a point at which its a joke on ourselves doesnt cut it anymore, and thats the point at which youre catering to the slobbering otaku masses to the same extent to which Lucky Star is.
This is true, but what if it’s reverse-satire!? This works like a reverse trap, get this. What reverse-satire is is satire that is so appealing even towards the target audience being satirised that they go all out to embrace the show anyway. Ouran would also be a good example since I’m sure the anime was embraced by many girls despite how much fun was made at their expense.
>>Are hit or miss as you very well know.
Aight, I get your point now. In mentioning that you can’t sell emotions, you were setting yourself up to say that you can’t sell moe? You were comparing moe to the pathetic appeals in crying-games-turned-anime, and I admit it’s a good comparison.
>>What you think of as moe and what I think of as moe is totally different.
What I think of moe is that it’s some intangible psychological play upon the audience that is intended to rake in profit (hence “rake-star”). I don’t think it’s quantifiable, being, as Wikipedia and Dr. Japes point out, everything. It’s infinite, as it were, due to the fact that the audience has a pretty open mind (tastes/genre bias aside, not many otaku are close-minded as I see it). I think it’s capable of being objectified, however, in that there ARE finite traits labeled “moe” and there are people who look at images and think to themselves “moe,” and not in the depressed manner I do. I don’t think it’s a genreit transcends that. It might even go up and change Aristotle for what it does. It’s an appeal, right up there with pathos, ethos, and logos, and a damn effective one when it comes to the general otaku.
>>because the company has nailed the formula as it were. This is what everyone claims LS is, and what I dont agree with.
Eh, I can’t speak for others, but when I talk about formulae in relation to Lucky Star, I generally mean that Kyoto Animation understands success in a vaguer sense. Like with the “dancing anime” thing, for example. Not that there’s a formula to moe that KyoAni has nailed, and not that Lucky Star is the right-hand side of that.
>>What reverse-satire is is satire that is so appealing even towards the target audience being satirised that they go all out to embrace the show anyway.
Let’s say, for the sake of the argument, that “moe” as a concept (or at least, as the infinite notion I mentioned earlier in this comment) is “evil.” Now you have tons upon tons of otaku who are enthralled by this “evil” concept. You make a show that defames the concept, exposing its evils through satire. But at the same time, your show is one of the best examples OF said concept. (I’m not arguing that LS is the epitome of moe. But it’s up there. And no, not as a genre.) These tons upon tons of otaku love your show, basking in the concept.
Now tell me, have you not fed trolls?
>>In mentioning that you cant sell emotions, you were setting yourself up to say that you cant sell moe?
Yes. And if you can’t sell moe as an anime neither can you really call said anime moe, so it all works together.
>>Its an appeal, right up there with pathos, ethos, and logos, and a damn effective one when it comes to the general otaku.
I’m starting to realise that trying to define moe is like trying to define deconstruction. See this article for more details. O SHI-
>>I generally mean that Kyoto Animation understands success in a vaguer sense.
Okay, I get you now.
>>These tons upon tons of otaku love your show, basking in the concept.
>>Now tell me, have you not fed trolls?
No, you’ve just made money out of making fun of them, and it’s an excellent creative achievement and therefore noteworthy and with merit. This would be the same like NHK ni Youkoso making tons of money out of real hikkikomoris. Moe as a concept isn’t evil, just a badly defined non-label. Use my word dammit! Reverse-satire!
>>And if you cant sell moe as an anime neither can you really call said anime moe, so it all works together.
American licensors likely won’t be selling Rozen Maiden as desu porn. Haruhi isn’t marketed as a dancing anime. In both cases, people call the shows what they aren’t being sold as, so I’m not sure I follow the logic of “if can’t sell as x, then can’t call it x”… Also, your comparison is unwinding here. While you can’t sell the emotions of AIR themselves, AIR is certainly marketed as an emotionally-packed piece, and is called such by many who have been made to cry by it. The fact that you can’t sell tangible moe doesn’t impinge upon marketing or labeling. In theory at least.
>>Im starting to realise that trying to define moe is like trying to define deconstruction.
So why bother? It’s a non-word with infinite scope… of course it’d be impossible to define.
>>No, youve just made money out of making fun of them
Oh. Then I guess my only qualm with LS is thater… no qualm? No, I was definitely disgusted by it. Maybe I wrote it off on moe because I couldn’t put my finger on it and moe, being the infinite non-word it is, was the perfect scapegoat. Now I’m puzzled, and want to know why exactly it is that LS turned me off in 2.5 minutes. I’m sooooooo confused T_T !!
>>Also, your comparison is unwinding here. While you cant sell the emotions of AIR themselves, AIR is certainly marketed as an emotionally-packed piece, and is called such by many who have been made to cry by it.
No it isn’t. I meant, they can’t sell it as in they can never sell the concept in its purest form, only something they hope their viewers perceive as moe. This in turn ties back to what I said about why it gets my goat when people say “moe anime” because no one explicitly markets it as “THIS IS MOE COUNTRY”, they just hope that their viewers think of it as. And if they’re doing so the label everyone’s applying becomes defunct as a result.
>>So why bother?
My post was to tell people to stop bothering.
>>Now Im puzzled, and want to know why exactly it is that LS turned me off in 2.5 minutes. Im sooooooo confused T_T !!
Protip: I was doing viral marketing for KyoAni, LOL TARP.
>>Protip: I was doing viral marketing for KyoAni, LOL TARP.
And here I was, thinking that we were having a good discussion. GO DIE IN A HOLE.
>>And here I was, thinking that we were having a good discussion. GO DIE IN A HOLE.
lol j/k 8D
I hope this doesn’t put other people off having a discussion though, this was pretty fun.
“Whats worse is that its even been compared to KyoAnis previous works.”
This was brought up several times when Kanon had begun, with Kyonichi, references and the like, and it was funny how annoyed some people got because people couldn’t see the two entities as different, since it’s true. In this case, the same thing is happening, and I’m siding with the annoyed people. I don’t know what people were supposed to be expecting. Lucky Star will never be the Second Coming of Haruhi, so take it for what it is.
And I find the people who are like “I AM NEVAR WATCHING THIS AGAIN I HAET IT” after only taking a look at one episode out of 24 to be very, very silly. :3
Small problem regarding Visual Noves turned anim:
Visual Novels are multipath, meaning you get to pick the path you wanna go down on (or lack of therof). In the case of animating a multipath story, you have some problems. Do you wanna focus on all of the girls, or do you want to focus on one of them? Normally, you would wold choose the former, because, well, most of them are half sex, half fanservice, and a bit of plot thrown in. With notable titles like Kanon, AIR, Clannad, Tsukihime et al, you’ve got a pretty deep story that does not involve sex at all (okay, maybe in Tsukihime it was necessary :V), meaning, how would you go about telling such a story involving all the characters? If you stick to a certain path, you run the risk of limiting characters. Run them all, and you might have to cut some events. Or forge a completely different story that appeals to the fans.
And to get back on track, animating 4koma is a very hard thing. Not only are these one-shot gags, most of them don’t really have a continuation. Harder still is how to link up the disjointed strips without alienating the viewer. This was a problem I faced watching not just Lucky Star, but also Azumanga Daioh. (As a side note, Azumanga was a laugh riot.)
As for the whole mo thing (it’s m-o-Alt-233), well, I define it as cute. Mostly.
BigN: Actually, I can kinda see where Hinano is coming from, though. While it may not pander or is marketed towards an otaku audience, it sure looks like it, whioch is why she had such vitriol when she said she hated it. I should know I was the same after the first episode of Chocotto Sister.
thebign: Yeah. KyoAni’s just an animation studio, but they still don’t get it, noooo. During the second episode of Darker than Black maybe I should start whining about how there isn’t a HEMISPHERE and GIANT ROBOTO within the city (wait, maybe there is…) like RahXephon had, or how the female character designs aren’t as well drawn as Ouran High School Host Club’s. Because, y’know, they’re from the same studio.
drmchsr0: I couldn’t be bothered to the whole time. Count the number of times and you’ll know why, etc. Also, did you by any chance reply to the wrong topic or something? I made a Kanon 2006 post a few days back.
Also lol @ convenient plot device making sex necessary, I heard Fate/stay night had the same thing too, something about having to recharge mana? Pretty funny stuff.
Hey Drm where did you pick up the é, I thought it was a French thing? :)
What’s really weird is that all of these arguments could possibly (although not probably) be put to rest once the next episode comes out. Who knows? Maybe the next episode will be awesome for everyone.
lolikit: That ’s pronounced like the Japanese “e” though.
TripleA: I hope so too. But knowing what they say of the source material… highly unlikely. Although I’m happy I converted lolikit back to the hivemind, lol.
>>lolikit: That s pronounced like the Japanese e though.
BUT WHY
You don’t romanize it with an accent. People who use (French) accents (to emulate Japanese sounds) are arrogant, artsy, and a whole lot of other things. “We’re superior because we can use French symbols to inform Westerners as to how to pronounce a Japanese mora” or some shit. It’s disgusting.
>>Although Im happy I converted lolikit back to the hivemind, lol.
Oh please.
>>You dont romanize it with an accent. People who use (French) accents (to emulate Japanese sounds) are arrogant, artsy, and a whole lot of other things. Were superior because we can use French symbols to inform Westerners as to how to pronounce a Japanese mora or some shit. Its disgusting.
Uh, blame Shii or something? Also, I hardly think drmchsr0′s arrogant and artsy, he probably wanted me to go through my wall of text and replace all the e’s with ’s because he has OCPD (lol j/k).
Lucky Star 2 is out, but a.f.k’s will take some time…
“BigN: Actually, I can kinda see where Hinano is coming from, though. While it may not pander or is marketed towards an otaku audience, it sure looks like it, whioch is why she had such vitriol when she said she hated it.”
But you could say that it’s marketed to an otaku audience. Why the heck would Konata be an otaku if they weren’t? But it’s also going for slice of life in a more “lifey” way then usual, and people weren’t expecting that/liking it. Extrapolating: another example of anime as escapism? lol.
>Bleach = parody of generic shounen action series.
Not quite. Bleach takes itself serious and was never intended to be a parody of sorts. This applies generally to every Shounen Jump title, they live after all from their basic concepts and the reader’s attraction to that. Busou Renkin starts out like a parody but quickly wears off and takes itself just as serious as the rest most of the time.
As for the moe concept. Yes, it’s nonsensical and it’s actually good that somebody actually steps out and addresses that stupidity, I’m too tired to read that. Yes, it’s fun to use but when you apply it as a genre and label whole series as MOE ANIMU it becomes ridiculous.
Or I demand everybody to call Romeo x Juliet a MOE ANIMU because Juliet is so moe, I’m gonna die~
^That’s actually true, she’s the cutest character since Tohru from Furuba and Sakura/Misaki from CCS/AL. :P
Yeah that’s pretty much how I feel right there on all 3 points. It actually goes both ways though. You’ve got the, “Oh that’s so Moe, I love it” group on one side and the “Oh, it’s stupid Moe again, I hate it” and neither seems to realize the truth of the matter. Everybody here has added nicely to the discussion. This is what we call dissent, its not beating the shit out of the series, its critiquing it. I feel too many people are unwilling to step up to the bat and critique things these days for fear of offending other peoples tastes and opinions.
Lolikitsune, while you are commenting, you do a service to the internet by taking up the critical perspective. I do the same as well in my own way.
I was just browsing some old posts when I came across this post here.
“Heres what I dont get you dont like Lucky Star, which is an adaptation of a 4koma, because of the graphics, which werent even there to begin with? Thats like asking why cant a strawberry taste like an orange and look like a banana all because the orange and banana came first. Its flimsy reasoning like these trying to pass for an opinion that makes me sit back and shake my head in despair.”
Wow… just wow. Can you please kindly point out 1) where I compare Lucky Star to KyoAni’s previous works and 2) where I said I didn’t like Lucky Star because of the graphics?
Here’s the original post, because it’s short. I’ll even highlight some bits to give you some tips.
“I just watched Lucky Star episode 1 and I have a few words to say to everyone out there.
Fuck Moe Kyoto Animation.
I liked Haruhi, I semi-liked Kanon, but Im finding a hard time liking Lucky Star. It just isnt funny. I mean, I even watched the whole episode! Moe alone isnt going to sell a show to me, and I hope there arent enough shallow people out there to finance more shows like Lucky Star.
If Lucky Star turns out to be funny, more power to Kyoto Animation, and more good anime for anime watchers everywhere. Until then
Bring on the Full Metal Panic(s).”
And I’m not comparing the KyoAni shows. Rather, I’m drawing a trend about the shows that KyoAni are making – which is taking a direction decidedly pointed at moe-land. Full Metal Panic has very little moe elements, but other strong elements to back it up. Haruhi has a lot of moe elements, but also have other strong elements to back it up. Kanon sells itself half on moe, half on drama. Lucky Star has moe… and lots of un-funny. Admittedly it’s gotten funnier and funnier, but you’re not going to bother trying to understand or respect anything I write anyway.
Funny, the last time I called your bluff when you played the Semantics card you didnt bother replying, but I will here anyway since its my blog and all that. Likewise, I dont expect you to reply to this because apparently you like hit-and-run, not dialogue.
This is what you said in the comments, btw!
>>Its graphics isnt even the normal KyoAni standard. Very smooth animation, sure, but there isn;t exactly a bucket-load animation here except in the OP. The colours are very clean and crisp, but its not as beautiful or detailed as Haruhi or Kanon. Not there there isnt a lot of attention of detail, there are a lot of little things thats worth noticing through out the episode, but its doesnt benefit that much from the extra attention from KyoAni
I also highlighted the important bits. You seem to have a problem here with being told that your opinion sucks because it doesnt have a sound basis or because youre comparing it on uneven grounds, really.
Youre also comparing them again.
>>Full Metal Panic has very little moe elements, but other strong elements to back it up. Haruhi has a lot of moe elements, but also have other strong elements to back it up. Kanon sells itself half on moe, half on drama. Lucky Star has moe and lots of un-funny.
Youre using your favourite KyoAni shows (FMP, Haruhi) to justify your comparison to what you think are weaker ones (Kanon, Lucky Star) on the grounds of moe, so what is that? Im afraid youve lost me here, FMP and Haruhi had hardly a need for proper moe on the basis of their respective genres, and Kanon and Lucky Star do to a greater extent whats up with that?
Fact is if you really werent comparing you wouldnt have mentioned FMP, or Haruhi, or Kanon in the same post at all. To break it down, your sentence that said [Fuck Moe Kyoto Animation] implies comparison to KyoAnis previous works. If that wasnt enough you bring up three works that are non-related in terms of genre, and any person with a reasonable grasp of English could infer from [I liked Haruhi, I semi-liked Kanon, but Im finding a hard time liking Lucky Star] that you were comparing them through the sentence structure. I stick by what I said.
Oh and also why your opinion sucked at the time was how you had the faint impression that all it had was moe, but Im sure you know what they say about hindsight. Also, youve written like two more pieces in the past two months since then, and none of them were particularly thought-provoking or worthy of a thumbs-up in my book? Great assumption there, when you actually start updating regularly Ill really try to understand and respect what you write if warranted.